Ep 7 Season 2

Carnegie Classifications: How they impact institutional tenure expectations

Hello, and welcome. I am your host, Neil Ward, and I’m grateful that you are taking time out of your day to learn more about Design Educators’ paths to Tenure. I truly appreciate it. 

On this episode of Tell It To Neil, we’re chatting with Professor of Higher Education and Student Affairs, Victor Borden, from Indiana University Bloomington in Bloomington, Indiana. Let’s listen in.

Neil: Hi Vic, thank you for being on Tell It To Neil.

Victor: You’re quite welcome; glad to be here.

Neil: So, let’s get into it. Can you talk about your current role as the Project Director for the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education?

Victor: Sure. It’s a part of a, a piece of my job. I have a multi-faceted job, as to most Faculty members, and I also have a history of having administrative jobs so between, I still have all of them and Carnegie Classification Project is one of the research projects within the Center I work, one that I direct and takes up a decent amount of my time. Sometimes it pays for a good amount of it, sometimes it doesn’t but it probably is about a quarter of all of my work, with my other roles being as a Faculty member in a Higher Education Program and I still have a vestigial role as a Senior Advisor for one of the Senior Administrators at IU that stems from my long time working in the field we call Institutional Research.

Neil: So that would be the area for the IRB Board and whatnot? 

Victor: No, not that type of research, that human subjects research; institutional research is a peculiarly unique to higher education. It’s typically an office in the administration that provides decision support information to the leadership of the University and more and more to many other people who want to use data to, or evidence to inform their work. But also has some sort of mundane roles in dealing with Government reports, compliance reports to both the Federal and State Government and some routine reporting at the institution regarding enrolments and retention rates and things like that.

Neil: Interesting. So, this episode of Tell It To Neil is a little bit different as we’re not exactly talking about Tenure but we’re talking about institutional classifications and a question that I have is, and I don’t know if you would know this or not, but how did the Carnegie Classification fall into IU? Or how did it get there?

Victor: I do know that.

Neil: Oh, great!

Victor: I was part of the group that brought it here. So the Classifications which began first as an internal project at the Carnegie Commission for Higher Education, which was a project created by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching and that was done in the late sixties, or just about 1970, and they gave Clark Kerr, who was coming off his long stint as President of the University of California and the creator of the California Master Plan. They basically gave him license to do policy research on higher education institutions and in that effort, he and his colleagues working on this research found that they needed some type of more nuanced taxonomy of higher education institutions than existed. There always existed types of institutions as defined by control, whether it’s public, private non-profit or for profit and the level, whether it’s an Associates Institution or Community College as they’re commonly called, or a Bachelors, Masters or a Research University or a type with special focus on just like limited fields like a Business School, Law School or a Health Center. Anyway, so they created this Classification for internal work in 1971, published it as an appendix to a study they did and a lot of people in the field said, wow, that looks pretty useful. Can you release it officially? And in 1973 they released the initial Carnegie Classification, a single classification that we now call the Basic Classification because we’ve added others, and it is well known among Higher Ed policy and researchers for a long time and it has entered into the lexicon in various ways, like an R1 university or a Research 1 university, that’s a category of the Classification which is more well-known than the Classification itself. But also it’s used for example by US News to separate institutions into categories: National Universities which is a re-naming of our Doctoral Universities. National Liberal Arts Colleges, Baccalaureate Colleges, Arts and Science Focus and then Regional Universities are Masters Colleges and Universities and Regional Colleges are other Baccalaureate Institutions aside from the Arts and Science focus ones.

(05:15) 

Neil: So that was kind of an over view of all of the Classifications!

Victor: It was an overview, although I can give you a little more formal specifications if you will; the sort of trumping rules that we use.

Neil: Yes, absolutely, that would be great because I find that when, especially for myself, when I graduated from my MFA degree then moving into an academic job, I would see these initials, R1, R2, Teaching and I’m like, I don’t know what this is all about. I need a job, so…

Victor: Sure.

Neil: It was kind of the idea for this episode is to give those, to give those graduates and to give those in Tenure Track positions too an idea of what these mean. So yeah, if you could go into a little bit more in depth with them, that’d be great.

Victor: I can do that even pretty briefly. So, the first thing we do is we determine whether an institution is Special Focus or Comprehensive. And we look at the proportion of degrees that are conferred in single disciplinary groupings, like Business degrees is one grouping and Engineering degrees or Art degrees, although we combine Art with Music and Design as category. So, if an institution confers seventy five per cent or more of its total degrees in that one disciplinary area, we call it a Special Focus Institution and that’s the first trumping rule, if you will. So the institutions that fall into Special Focus are sub-divided according to the content or the topic of that focus, whether they be Medical Centers, other Health, Law Schools, Business Schools, Art and Design Schools, Music, Art and Design are combined.  Used to be a category for Teachers’ Colleges, but none exist any more, so that category went away. So those are the Special Focus Institutions. The remainder of the Universities, the Comprehensive ones as we would refer to them, are divided first by their highest degree level but with certain thresholds. So, for Associates Colleges, what we call Community Colleges, they can only confer Associates degrees; nothing higher, no Bachelors degrees and as you may know, many former Community Colleges started offering a modest number of four year degrees, Bachelor’s degrees, which put them out of the Associates Colleges but we do have a special sub-group for them which are predominantly Associates but that’s within the Baccalaureate or the four year degree category. So the Baccalaureate Colleges are ones that have either no or fewer than fifty Masters conferred in a year. The Masters Colleges confer fifty or more Master’s degrees but fewer than a certain number of Doctoral degrees, depending on the type of Doctoral degrees: Research, Scholarship, twenty, Professional Practice, thirty. But anyway, so we have a threshold that if they’re fewer than a certain number of Doctoral degrees, they go on the Masters category and then every institution that confers twenty or more academic Doctoral degrees or thirty or more Professional Doctoral degrees in at least two disciplines, are considered a Doctoral/Research University. So those are the broad distinctions by level. And then in each of those level distinctions, we sub-divide by different criteria. So, Bachelor’s degrees, Baccalaureate Institutions, excuse me, are divided by whether fifty per cent or more of their degrees are in traditional Arts and Sciences fields versus more professional fields, so we call the Arts and Science focus on by that name and the other are called Diverse Fields. Masters degrees…Masters Institutions are simply divided by size: fewer than a hundred or between fifty and a hundred; a hundred and one to two hundred or two hundred or more Masters degrees conferred in a year gets you in a small, medium or large category. Research and Doctoral Universities are divided by first, whether they have a sufficient amount of research and academic degrees to be called a Research University and if not, they’re called a Doctoral Professional University, and then the Research Universities are divided by an index we use to measure the level of research activity and we basically make a blunt distinction and put half of them in the Very High and the other half in the High Research category. So that’s the basic structure of what we call the basic classification. And there are other classifications of the undergraduate profile, the graduate profile, the size and setting that are more used in very specific research settings or in some institutional benchmarking activities.

(10:24) 

Neil: Interesting. So, when you’re talking about Research, what qualifies for Research for those institutions?

Victor: We use data for the entire system, we use data that are collected by the Federal Government, primarily by two agencies. The first is the Department of Education, which has this system wherein every institution that distributes Federal Aid, which is virtually every degree institution, except a handful that decide not to take Federal money; but if they take Federal Aid, they have to report their data through the system that’s called the Integrated Post Secondary Education Data System, or IPEDS. And IPEDS collects information each year about degrees conferred, enrolments, type of faculty, who are employed, finances; a range of things. So that’s where we get a lot of our data for the Classifications. But for Research Universities, we use data collected by the National Science Foundation through their statistical agency, the National…NSCES. National Statistics for…oh gosh, I’m blanking on it right now, but anyway, their agency collects the data and it includes research expenditures and research staffing, how many post-Docs and how many non-faculty researchers that the institution employs. So we use those data, we put together an index of activity and we basically define and find a cut-point to distinguish the smaller from the larger Research Universities, and that cut is intended entirely to be qualitative and not quantitative. I mean, it’s based on number but we don’t think as one as higher quality or lower quality, it’s simply amount of activity.

Neil: So, when we’re talking about these, the breakdown of institutions, where…where would most of the MFA graduates be coming from?

Victor: Well, let me start by telling you more about the total landscape and then I’ll hone in the…

Neil: Oh, yes please!

Victor: …MFA or at least the Design degree recipients. Because even though the MFA recipients come from certain types of institutions, MFA or Design Faculty have to teach at places that also offer Associates degrees and Bachelors degrees. And Doctoral degrees in the field. So, generally speaking, there’s this interesting differentiation in the US landscape between the institutions and where the institutions are, the distribution of types of institutions and where students enroll because some categories are made up of a lot of small institutions and another of a lot of, of a fewer large institutions. So overall, about two-thirds of your universities, one third are Associates Colleges, so Community Colleges and other institutions that only offer a two year degree or nothing higher than a two year degree. They comprise a third of all institutions. The Baccalaureate and the Masters institutions are another third and I’m gonna kind of, I’m gonna pool them together because for the purposes of position types, instructional types, they tend to be very similar profiles. And then the Doctoral Universities is a small group, only four hundred of the forty-three hundred total institutions are in it, but it has about half of all students enrolled at them, so ten per cent of the institutions that are Doctoral enroll forty-five per cent of students, roughly speaking. The Baccalaureate Masters, a third of institutions about a third of students. The Associates Colleges, even though they’re a third of all institutions, it’s only about twenty per cent of students and the Special Focus Institutions, which is important for the MFA in Design, they’re only about twenty-two per cent of institutions, just under a thousand institutions, but they have, they’re very small, so they only produce five per cent of all degrees. So that’s the broad field. A lot of…a few, small…sorry, a few large Doctoral Universities, much fewer smaller, Special Focus, with the others distributed in the middle.  As you might imagine, Associates Degrees, you primarily get them from the Community Colleges but Baccalaureate and Masters Institutions also confer a notable amount…

(15:06) 

…Doctoral degrees, pretty much only come from Doctoral Universities and the Bachelors and Masters degrees come from everything except for Associates Colleges. When it comes to universities that offer a degree in Design, and here you have to first say, what do you mean by a degree in Design? You know, you all may know and this is your field, so you know it better than I, but when an institution reports its degrees to the Federal Government, it has to pick a category to report them in and there’s a taxonomy of degrees or Majors that they use called CIP, or Classification of Instructional Programs, and within the CIP codes there is a section under the broad category of Visual and Performing Arts that is Design and Applied Arts and that section includes sub-categories of Design in Visual Communications; General, Commercial and Advertising Art, Industrial Design, Commercial Photography, Fashion Apparel Design, Interior Design, Graphic Design, Illustration, Game and Interactive Media Design and Other. So that’s…that’s the main Design category, but outside of that, even in the Visual and Performing Arts, there’s a Craft Design that separately includes Theater and Costume Design. That’s not part of this category of Design. And then outside of the Visual and Performing Arts, there are Design degrees in Instructional Media; Design Engineering Design; Environmental Design; Furniture Design and Hair Design as well. So, I’m focusing on that core of Design and Applied Arts category, because that’s where the bulk of the traditional degrees will be, so once we know we’re only talking about those degrees and we look at what types of institutions are conferring degrees? We find that what’s different from the broad landscape is that the Special Focus institutions are more prominent, so even though they represent only thirteen per cent of the institutions from which Design degrees are conferred or at which they’re conferred, it’s almost thirty per cent of all the Design degrees, and it’s especially big in the Masters degrees: thirty per cent, thirty-seven per cent of all Masters degrees that were conferred in Design as I described it, and I used two years of data just to make it a little more stable, but thirty-seven per cent are from Special Focus institutions. Thirty-six per cent are from Doctoral Universities and less than thirty per cent from Baccalaureate or Masters Institutions, so you see a lot more coming out of Special Focus Institutions and that also means more from for-profit institutions because you have quite a few of the Art Institutes and places like Argosy, a name that might be familiar to those with Design degrees. Those are for-profit institutions, not non-profit institutions, so they operate a little differently. But Doctoral Universities, which often play a bit role, despite there being few of them, still plays a bit role by having over a third of the MFA degrees in Design. It’s also about let’s see, where is that…looks like about…oh, twenty-two per cent of the…only four per cent of the Baccalaureate degrees come from the Doctoral Universities; twenty-two per cent come from the Bachelors degrees, but again, the point is, the Special Focus Institutions are a big player in producing Design degrees because of those Art Institutes and things like them. And that has a big ramification for Faculty positions because generally speaking, like Doctoral Universities, seventy per cent of their Faculty are full-time and thirty per cent part-time. And among those that are full-time, more than half of them are Tenure Track. That’s another thing where the people on Tenure Track are going down.

Now, generally speaking, Special Focus institutions have more than fifty per cent full-time Faculty but not among the Special Focus Institutions that confer Design degrees, since that includes so many of these for profit institutions, you have a much lower proportion of full-time Faculty; it’s only thirty per cent of the Faculty at Special Focus Institutions that confer Design degrees are full-time and among that thirty per cent that are full-time, only fourteen per cent of them are Tenure Track. So you see a lot of teaching positions at those types of institutions are either for part-time Faculty or non-Tenure Track full-time Faculty, so the Faculty teaching Design are more concentrated, especially the full-time Faculty, at the Doctoral Institutions. The part-time Faculty are primarily at the Special Focus, Community College and even the Bachelors and Masters Universities: fifty per cent of the Faculty there are part-time. 

(20:35)

Neil: Would you want to hazard a guess as to why Tenure Track positions are decreasing?

Victor: Well, I didn’t say they were decreasing. I said they were smaller.

Neil: Smaller, excuse me!

Victor: That’s OK. They are decreasing, generally speaking. Why? Because Tenure Track Faculty are a much more permanent commitment by an institution. Once you hire a Tenure Track Faculty and generally you don’t hire them unless they’re capable of getting Tenure. If they don’t get Tenure, it’s usually the choice of the Faculty member, but those who stick around and go through the paces tend to get Tenure at fairly high rates, because you certainly don’t want to let a person hang around for a while and then tell them after six years, oh, sorry, you’ve gotta leave. I mean, it happens but you do what you can to avoid that. But anyway, because of their costs and their permanency, institutions that have become a lot more focused on finances due to a whole array of things, including declines in public funding, increases in tuition that require students to take on more debt to complete degrees, so they’re very sensitive to financial issues and Tenure Track Faculty are much more expensive than part-time, well than non-Tenure Track and especially the part-time Faculty.

Neil: That was a good answer!

Victor: Yeah, there’s a lot of research going on. Adrianna Kezar at USC is a person who’s written a book about this recently and done a lot of research in the area but especially focusing on the rise of part-time contingent Faculty. You know, and there is, although the negative side is as employee, if that is your job of just being part-time Faculty, it’s difficult, the pay is low and benefits are scarce. On the other hand, if you want to find some teaching to do on the side, if you’re a professional and you want to teach, there’s lots of opportunities.

Neil: Which brings me to another question. That would be for those that are trying to transition from the industry into academia, that sounds like a good path.

Victor: Yeah, it’s a good way to get your feet wet. It certainly would be a path to go to teach part-time for a few years. You can do it at a number of different…you can do it online, you can do it in person depending on the type of institution, where you’re located and so on. And then after a while you can…you can look for a full time non-Tenure Track position. Obviously you can look for a Tenure Track position but frankly, at the types of institutions where Design degrees are conferred, there are more non-Tenure Track positions than Tenure Track positions. If you want to go that full route of research or scholarly position at a Doctoral University, there’s…there are positions out there but they’re gonna be much more competitive and difficult to transition to from industry if you don’t have a research history…but another pathway to speak of is one that I took, not intentionally, but one I ended up taking. I started my career as a full-time administrator, Director, being a Research Analyst in an Institutional Research Office and then moving to directing IR Offices but about half way through, or well, maybe a little less than half way through, after about eight or…six or seven years at post PhD, I took a position that was an administrative position but included a Faculty line and I did that very much to be encouraged or incentivized to teach and to produce publishable articles, you know, in my area it would be publishable articles that are the coin of the trade, so to speak. So the question would be, whether Design people work in Higher Education in non-Faculty jobs and of course, they work in Communications and Marketing, Media Relations and Media areas, sometimes working as professional or para-professional staff in with Design Departments, managing student labs or whatever else, what other type of administrator work they need with Design Departments or working in Schools of Design in an administrative capacity, so that’s another way. If you work in that capacity you could teach, you could add that, you can transition into the Faculty role as some of us have done.

(25:26) 

Neil: So, when you do get into that Faculty role, it…from what I’ve been hearing you say and talking with other colleagues, the Institution where you end up kind of dictates your scholarship?

Victor: Very much so. You know, because Special Focus Institution doesn’t use a lot of full-time Faculty, those who do though are primarily, well I’m sure they have jobs that entail other than instructional assignments, especially if they are the Tenure Track Faculty at a place that employs predominantly non-Tenure Track and part-time Faculty, there’s actually a lot of administrative work those folks have to do because they have to find people to teach classes, their part-time Faculty and others. So they have work to do there and that’s considered part of their load and publications and exhibitions and whatever, you know, whatever the common ways in which you recognize the scholarly level, the quality of scholarly work for Design Faculty would be not quite the emphasis. At the other extreme in a Doctoral University, Research Universities especially, they’re looking for people who are the top in their field and how do you know that? What are the criteria? Most Promotion and Tenure guidelines have broad university aspects to them but always have departmentally specific and departmentally appropriate aspects to it. So, those who are more advanced in the field are likely to be the ones setting those criteria as to how will we recognize the quality of our junior scholars, whether that be traditional publication venues, exhibitions, juried exhibits, what have you. That will focus, will be more primarily on that at the Doctoral Universities. In the middle where you have your Masters and Baccalaureate Institutions, they tend to focus quite a bit more on teaching and teaching excellence, including having, you know, student evaluations are kind of always there but peer evaluations and what you have done to develop your instructional expertise, things you’ve published on instruction as well as even things like awards your students have obtained. It’s a wide range of things that are usually considered. So that the sort of concentration of focus of what’s considered shifts away from research and scholarship and into teaching for institutions that are at the Masters and Baccalaureate level. And Associates Colleges, Community Colleges, it’s very focused highly on teaching, if not exclusively.

Neil: For somebody who is working in a Masters and Baccalaureate Institution, is it difficult to move into a Doctoral Institution or… 

Victor: It’s not…it’s…yes, it is. ‘Cause it’s not the focus of Promotion and Tenure at the Masters and Baccalaureate Institution is different and because of that, if you want to get your Promotion and your Tenure there, you have to focus on those things. If, however, you start out at a Masters or Baccalaureate Institution and you’re having some good luck with producing broader work, scholarly work, publications, exhibitions, whatever it is that is relevant to the field, so if early on you’re doing that, and you might actually do well and qualify for Promotion and Tenure at that institution but you sort of might have set yourself up for being considered for a position at a Doctoral University.

Neil: On the reverse side of things, if you’re at a Doctoral University…do you think it would be easier to move to a Masters and Baccalaureate School or…

Victor: Well…those who do move are generally doing so because they find the publish or perish part of the work or exhibit or publish, whatever the appropriate thing is, is not what they enjoy and what they really enjoy is classroom work, instructional development, instructional design even. So, typically, if they are motivated to move to that type of institution because that’s what they want to do, they’ll usually be in good position to do that.

(30:00)

Neil: So that’s usually a choice of what you want to work on? And, see, that’s why I feel this episode is really important is for those out there that are in those positions to really think about what they like, what they really enjoy and to be honest with themselves and if they do find themselves in an institution that is not quite matching their interests, that there are other institutions out there and to know what type of institutions there are to move to, to be happier and really for success.

Victor: Right, and yeah, the types give you the general on-average they’re gonna focus more on teaching or more on this, that and the other but you know, there is considerable variation within category so if you don’t like the Doctoral Institution you’re at, that doesn’t mean another Doctoral Institution wouldn’t be a more favorable environment. They do have different focuses, even within category. This is just in general. And again, knowing that differences exist at all. But yeah, if you’re really into teaching and you want to teach all the time, a Community College you’re gonna do that. A Baccalaureate Institution, you’re gonna do that as well, so yeah, it does help, it is good, useful to know about the different emphases of the different types of institutions.

Neil: Through their research, are Doctoral Universities, are they primarily public institutions or are they private institutions?

Victor: They’re definitely a mix. I think…out of the hundred and thirty-one that are currently there, I think it’s ninety-four are public, so the majority of them are public and the publics tend to be bigger, but Harvard, Stamford, Yale, all the Ivy Leagues are private Doctoral Universities. Cornell’s kind of a weird mix; it has both private and public schools within it. But other than that, Ivy Leagues and Stamford and you know, the most well-known Doctoral Universities and often the ones that perform best on the international rankings are going to be the private universities because they have more resources and public universities are facing some challenges. And some also serving some purposes that are different. So, public Doctoral Universities tend to have a majority of strong, large majority of undergraduate students. My own institution has forty-five thousand students of which thirty-three thousand are undergraduates. Private Doctoral Universities tend to be fifty-fifty or even have majority graduate students, so they tend to have smaller, more selective undergraduate student bodies, whereas the public research universities, the State flagship universities tend to have very large undergraduate student bodies. 

Neil: Would you have any advice for MFA students going into or looking for a Tenure Track job?

Victor: Well, you know, a lot of stuff is so disciplinary specific, so it’s hard to think about general advice, but you know, when you’re…when you’re assessing your suitability and whether you want to go that route, it’s really looking at what are those key products that you…what are the key things you have to do? What behaviors? What activities do you spend your time doing? It’s true that at universities, people do spend generally spend the majority of their time teaching, but sometimes it’s almost fifty-fifty. As you…depending on what type of program you’re associated with, if it is only an MFA program and there’s not an undergraduate program, you’ll generally spend more time working on the kind of project, scholarly projects and artistic projects that are seen as the primary types of work. Often with the students in the program. So, to the degree that, you know, look at what is the undergraduate-graduate mix? If there’s a very large undergraduate program, note that you’re going to be spending more time doing teaching and possibly student advising. If it’s slanted towards the MFA program, then you’ll spend more time doing and teaching about the higher level work in the area. I happen to be myself at a program that doesn’t have an undergraduate program. It’s graduate only and I primarily work with Doctoral students and that makes life very different. Teaching classes is very small part of what is done. Advising Doctoral students working on dissertations with them and research with them is the majority of time, so you know, understanding what that work balance is within a particular program based on the proportions of undergraduate and graduate students that they have is something you want to take a look at.

(35:20)

Otherwise, you know, there’s always this balance of the question of whether you put lots of time into fewer high quality projects or have your hands in a lot of things and try and produce a lot and they may not go into the most highly visible and highly recognized venues of publication or dissemination. But they get out to people who, to more people usually and even more people for whom they will have an impact. So, the traditional, most traditional Doctoral Universities are looking for the people who produced the highest quality stuff in the most recognized venues, but there are many that are looking at what kind of impact is it having and how broad, what is the array of types of things the person gets involved in and do they collaborate with others on doing that? And it’s a double-edged sword because they want to see both but it’s hard to do both and so you ultimately have to take a…make your pick. Although that can change over the course of a career for sure. But at the beginning of the career when you’re trying to make your mark as the person that will be Tenured at an institution, you have to understand that culture of what they value and manage your time well so that you can produce what is needed to be produced to get Tenure. And programs usually structure things to protect Junior Faculty from the distracting tasks like having them not sit on many committees, as many degree committees as they will when they get Tenured, not providing as much departmental or school Service; not being quite as involved in professional organizations or academic organizations. Although you need some of that, but the focus at first is really on making your name and reputation and getting good work out there that can be easily, readily identified. Later on it’ll change and you’ll have a lot more choices as to what type of work you can focus on but you gotta make that first hurdle.

Neil: Yes, those first six years are definitely a marathon!

Victor: Yep, and you know, it’s interesting with Tenure, the initial Tenure, one thing people should know: when you go for your original, initial Tenure and usually Promotion to Associate, they consider everything you’ve done in your life, not just what you’ve done while you’ve been there in the position. So…it’s fine if you have from your MFA, from some work you’ve done, if you have a record of accomplishment there, that counts. But when you get, once you get Tenured and an Associate Professor, that next step to a full Professor is based only on what you’ve done since you’ve had Tenure.

Neil: Which, that will probably serve for Season Three or Four of this podcast. What happens after Tenure! 

Victor: Right, right, because there are a lot of people who remain Associate for their entire careers after they get Tenure and don’t go up for that last thing, and there are some gender biases in that as well. Issues of life-work balance, issues of who gets…who takes on Service loads and things like that. Also for Faculty of color, it’s a difficult issue because there are a lot of demands on their time since they are a minority, usually more so among the Faculty than students of color are; they have a lot of pressures to provide a lot of advising and to be the mentor for lots of students, more so than Faculty of not color, to dominate culture Faculty.

Neil: Well, and I would imagine the LGBT group of Faculty would have additional demands as well.

Victor: Yes, yes.

Neil: Well, that’s all, those are all the questions that I have. Did I miss anything?

Victor: No, not that I’m aware of. I appreciate being allowed to talk to a community that I don’t know very well actually, so, hi everyone! Despite the fact that my father was a Graphic Designer and my wife is a Graphic Designer, but not professionally. Oh, my father was but as a Lithographer, so…in those days, you didn’t need College to do that.

Neil: Thank you very much for your time today, it was a pleasure talking to you.

Victor: OK, great talking with you.

This concludes Season Two, Episode Seven of Tell It To Neil. If any of the facts or information included in this Episode are incorrect, please feel free to get in touch through our email, hello@tellittoneil.com

If you would like to get in touch with Victor, please contact him through his email at vborden@iu.edu.

(end of recording 40:34)

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